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02-12-1963 A Special meating Tuesday, February 12, 1963, of the Zo�ing and Planning Connnission of the City of Hopkins, Minnesota was held at 7:30 p.m. in Council Chambers of the City Hall. Present were Mayor Milbert, Coun�ilman Else Chairman Sundby, Stannard and Gustafson, the City Enginner, Strojan, the �ity Building Inspector, Blomquist, the City Attorney, � Vesely and the City Planner, Hawks. Case No. 63-4-Z & P. Applicant: The Zoning and Planning Co�nission. Subject: Ho�a to handle the (M-D) Multiple Residence parts of the Zo�ing an3 Planning Ordinance, Ordinance �k131. Action: No action was taken. Mr. Hawks was requasted to bring to the next special Zoning and Planning Coznnission meeting concrete plans con�erning the proposed chan�es in the (M-Dj of Ordinance �k131. Case No. 63-5-ZigP. Applicant: Zoning and Planning Co�nnissio� Subject: Review boundary adjustments of the City. Action: No action was taken. Mr. Stannard, Mr. Malecha, Mr. Sundby m��nbers of the Planning Com,nission along with the City Manager, Mr. Brubacher, and tne Ci�.y Planner Mr. Hawks will meet with �Iinn�tonka�s Zoning an.d Planning Bounda,ry Co�nnittee on Wednesday evening, Feb. 13th, 1963 at 8:3c� in the Minnetonka Village Hall and they will bring back a report on t?�e above .-. question as far as Minnetonka is con�erned after that meeting a_nd for our next special meeting of March 12th, 19�3. Case No. 63-6-Z & P. Applicant: Zonin�; and Planning Co�nission Subject: Review and discuss the joint meetin� o:� the D��an-town Plan. Outline the steps to be followed in the future �neetin�s so that the eiztire D�wn-Toan Plan _naybe carefully revie;ae3. Action: No action taken.. General dis,�ussion concerning various phases but no formal a�tion taken on any p�rtion of the plan. Mr. C. R. Peterson, Secretary of the Co:mnis s ion MEMBERS: -� AT'rEST: Ho�aard G. Sun�by, Chairman � A special meeting of the Zoning and Planning Commission was held on Tuesday, February 13, 1963 at 7:30 in the Council Chambers of the City Hall. Present were Mayor Milbert, Councilman Else and members Chairman Sundby, Stannard and Gustafson. The City Manager, Brubacher, the �ity En�ineer, Strojan, the City Building � Inspector, Blomquist and the City Planner, Hawks. With Sundby called the meeting togather with the announcement that Mr. Donnellan has offered his "back room" for our special meetings. When it is possible because of our maps etc, to meet there for the special meetings in the future we will do so; otherwise we will confinue to hold them in the Council Chambers. Mr. Sundby: Caee No. 63-4-Z Applicant: Zonino & Planning Co:nmission Subject: How to handle the (M-D) Multiple Residence parts of the Planning and Zoning Ordinance ��131. ACTION REQUIRED: Reco:nmend any changes to the City Council for further action by that body. Mr. Hawks: "All of you have been on the Commission long enough so that you are familiar with the Ordinance as we have it to work with now." "Are � there any questions concerning the Ordinance?" Mayor Milbert: "Our presnet Ordinance requires 1000 Sq. Ft. of densities?" Mr. Hawks: "Yes, that it right." Mr. Hawks then took the map that shows the various zones and pointed out the M-R sections on the ��na.p explaining that the area around the Elmo Park area is pretty much built up. There is one lot there in Double Residence. There is another area by the Fairgrounds. "Tnere �ill be quite a lot of space with the re�noval of the existing structures." "We are do;�:�. to a older houses on 8th which are gradually being taken down and will be a part of the down-to�n: plan." "Tnen in the area of Monroe we have an area that is D-R. "There is quite a little space here." "We have � another that has one piece where we now have a 16 units building on it." "We have this "y" site over here in this area." "You can see that we are pretty limited in M-R. areas." "The Ordinance provides for a 10' set back and 1000 ft densitie; and the hight limitation of three stories; a court if you have that type of buiiding; if you go higher than one floor you have to have side yards of 10� for the first floor plys 5' for each additional story." "No front yard parking." "You must provide parking space on the lot." "Also 150� of play area and remember there must be 1000 feet of densitie except right down town." "I a:n wondering ho�a you feel about 1000 feet of density; St. Louis Park has a higher re- quirement as far as density goes." "�olden Valley is very high, there are the highest, as they require 450�'. Edina go around 1500 sq. ft, after requirinig 6000 sq, ft. for the lst. two floors." "The .�nore fo�rs you have on onesite the lower the density." Minnetonka •�. will not allow appartments." "Minneapolis you can get down to a density of 300 sq. ft. per unit." "i�e are faced here in Hopkins with "what do we want to do?"" "The tax figure is good on apartments." "As far as schools go, there are not many children in apar�ments." "You -2- The February- 13th. 1963 Zoning and Planning special meeting minutes continued. "And when the apartment does allow children they are usually pre-school and the parents move waen it is time for them to go into schools." "They stay in the area but move into homes." "�e aezd :nore �-R, if we are going to cater to this type of people." "They usually '� are the type that walk to work." "They do not have as many cars." "They will mostly work here in town." "They would be single girls and older people." "If you are going in for apartment with young couples with cars then the buildin�s will be different, you will find their needs will be different and so will their de��nands." Mr. Hawks shows a newspaper list that gives the density of various areas." "He explains that the article is expressed by so many p�ople per sq. mile." "rhe lowest is 250� to 4000." "Lo� uroanize3 is abour 700 to 750 izouses or 800 houses per sq. mile or 50' fots." "If we are going into urban that is low you will have about 10,000 people; a density of 3000 people per sq. mile." "ro get this you have �-R and Apartments." "If you will go to over three stories you will have to make provisions for this type of building in your Ordinance." � "This area here from �3ighway ��7 to the church is D-R.�' "It is questionable in my mind if this is D-R. area." "You must remember if we are building in such a way that more people can live in Hopkins but also we �aant to building in such a way as not to build in nore problems." "This recom,nendation that we have here is an attempt to doctor up the Ordinance we have now." "We think we need two different types of areas." The M-R-1 which would be the suburban; but it seens to me that we should be ripe for high riser apartments." Mayor Milbert: "rhe piece by Lake Street was sold and the owner is going to com� for a request to rezone for a high rizer apartment." ��Tne only thing right now is the road into the area." Mr. Sundby: " [�'hat is the reasinong behind zoning this area '�I-R.7" "Why was it zoned M-R?" �— M,ayor Milbert: "The owners came in and wanted the area to be zone Multipt�J. and so it was zoned that way." The area down below is really not material for buildings." "It needs a lot of work on it." Mr. Else: "On a lot tnat size we say three units and only three stories, any reason for this?" Mr. Hawks: "This was to co:nply with the Ordinance as it is written." "Also to keep the density down." Mr. Else: "In ouher words you have to have a lot that is so big for a given number of units?" Mr. Hawks: "You could build a double on it, if it was not large enough for the apartments. � Mr. Else: "We are getting into a multipul situation nore and more." Mr. Hawks: "It is a problem; if you want this kind of density you will loose the suburban type of look." "You have to decide just what you want to do." Mayor Milbert: "What about those apartments on 6th Avenue South." Mr. Strojan: "They are about 1000'." Mra.yor Milbert: "There is nothing wrong wit�those." s � The February 13th, 1963 Zoning and Plannin� special meeting minutes continued. Mr. Sun3by: "If you were to propose this type of high rise apartment building, were would you propose we build the,n?" Mr. Hawks: "Pointed out the area that could be used for high rise apartm�ants an3 added ou could o down to 600' of densit " "Your � Y g y. ground coverage is very limited with t�is type of apartment building; you have garages and storage underground." Mayor Milbert: "This Iooks like we are going into the reverse." "When we have a three story apartment building we seem to have :nore parking than when we have a high rise building." "You get more complaints from the out lying apartment buildings than you do from the ones down town." Mr. Hawks: "rhat is because the people in the out lying apartment buildings all drive cars and so they have to have room for more cars." Mr. Sundby: "That property on 17th can only be developed as an apartment building." -� Mr. Hawks: "That is rigk�t." Mayor Milbert: "On the Lamp lighters; there is four lots there." "The parking is somewnat of a problem." Mayor Milbert: "The parking space is there but they do not want to use it." Mr. Blo:nquist: "The people Iiving in the building do not like to drige around through th alley to park in the area in back; so they park in front on the street." Mr. Else: "What are thedimensions John?" Mr. Strojan: "About 80'." Mr. Sundby: "Jim, if you were to change the Ordinance and the number oi stories, how far would you go with it?" "Would you make any limitations?" Mr. Hawks: "We are using an Ordinance that we know we want to change; we are zaritting .-. the Ordinance over." "The signs, redistricting and other sections of the Ordinance will be changed." "i�That we want to do is to just get along for the next 18 months until the Ordinance can be re;aorked and we can be sure of just how we want it to be." "The text of the Ordinance is not the problem, but when you start moving these lines around on the zoning map that is when you will get into trouble." "You will find yourselves cl-�.nJing the values of land." "A piece of property for a three story building is wor'th say, �3500.00 but you put this piece of property into a zone wnere you can put a high rise apartment on it and it ¢rorth $10,000." "So you must be sure wnen you move these lines around that you are c�oing wnat you ^ want and plan to leave them after they are �noved." Mr. Else: "I do not know �why we should limit the hight of any high rise apartment." Mr. Hawks: "rhe floor area ratio is one." "You may have as ma.ny sq, ft. of floor as you have of land." "You could have a F.A.R, and have a very large building." -4- The February 13th, 1963 Zoning and Planning special meeting cninutes continued. Mr. Hawks: "However, as long as you are operating under the building code you have I do not see �hy we should be limite3 to the nu�ber of floors you can have." "Water would be the only problem and that is something the builder would .-. have to work out." Mr. Sundby: "Some of the people would say that a high rise buildinger would spoil the country sides appearance." Mr. Hawks: "There are some areas where they will not let high rise apartme�nts be constructed." Los Angles and Phoenix are t�,ro cities where you can not put up high risers." Mr. Hawks: "I would like to have you understand w:zat we are operating on now." "What other areas are doing." "What this is doing to the connnunites." "Spending wise the apartment dweller shops Fiay by day; persons living in houses tend to shop by the week." "The apartm��nt dweller has less to do and so is ^ out of his home _nore and is using the recreation typ� of facilities of the town more." "Some say that there are to many ouilding going up in Minneapolis but the vacancies are still down to the point that does not show this." Mr. Stannard: �We should take first things first." "Do �e �aant to change the Ordinance before we change the map." Mr. Hawks: "Yes, I want you to kno;a about b�th the map and the ordinance." "You can get 95% financing on apartment buildings." "Churches can uet 100'/o financing and they take ovar the apartment building but there is no t� on it." Mr. Else: "Is the 100"/o the church get under FHA?" Mr. Hawks: "Yes, it is with FHA." "And tax free." "But from what you can see around -�. Minneapolis and with the other outlying areas going to be a few years getting theirselves in order it foes not appear that there will b� any reason why apartment buildings should not continue to be built in the first ring of the suburbs." Mr. Else: "`This �nater of creating an apartment building into a rest home." "Could we zone in such a way as to control the rest homes." Mr. Hawks: "With zoning you could not pe�mit an apartment building and pI�1E kept an old age ho:ne out." "rhey usually combine them in the ordinances." "Right now they are building 160 in Richfield." "Have you sezn the area around Texa-Tonka?" "It is really pretty full, they are filling it up wit:� large ^ building just as close as they can." "They are all around General Mills." "Golden Valley has quite a few sites." Mr. Blomquist: "On that question about the Lamp Lighters apartment; the lot is 1001 x 140'." "There is plenty of room." Mr. Else: "The side yar3s are not useable." "That is for parking; that area and the -5- The February 13th, 1903 Zoning and Pla�_zning special meeting minutes continued. area between tne buildings is grass." Mr. Blomquist: "iKost of the apartments we have now are one be3room, only a few are two bedroo�; the parking is usually in the back." Mr. Brubacher: "A person called and said that he was interested in building a high rise apartment building." "He ask us if we had an area �or that type af apartment building." "You will never guess what area he is interested in, it is Russ Carroll�s property or area." Mr. Else: "I think that would be a good place for that type of building." "I do not know ho� they would get a road into it, but that would be up to the County." Mr. Hawks: "As far as the road goes that is up to the state." Mr. Gu.stafaon: "Will Russ Carroll permit it?" Mr. Brubacher: "He sold the land." Mr. Hawks: "We have a lot of things that is going to be cha.nge3." -� Mr. Blomquist: "I have had inquiry on the Zakariasen and the Gerard property." "People have called and ask about what the possiblity on M-D. are4.�" Mr. Hawks: "Lets look at the passibilities; are we going to continue to grow as we have in the past?" "If that is true it will be at the rate of 3500 poeple a year." "[nThere are they going to go?" "You can not go much futher out and have facilities." "St. Louis Park has about 10,000 peopel to go and they wi11 be full." "Golden Valley are gettomg better." "They have the sewer but not the Water." "Robbinsdale has nobody." "Edina has about 2500. "So this is the area to do something and by t?�e time the other comnunitias have there problems solved we will b� in the position to continue to grow." "If you could give me some indication as to w'nat you want and then I will --� co:ne back with a plan to be presented to the Council." "If we are ooing go consider high riser apartment buildings are we going to leave the top on them?" Mr. Else: "we :�ave to watch for the density." Mr. Hawks: "We could break the density by bedrooms." Mr. Su�nby: "And let the�n make their o;�n co:nple�nents." Mr. Stannard: "i�Th.y can�t we 3o what we have done here." "We should not be belo�a 1000 Sq ft." Mr. Hawks: "You could go to 600 ft." Mr. Sundby: "You are saying that we could do both; Motel and motor hotel are now a ,� proposed 600'." "We could do that?" "How the Donnellan rooms? Mr. Blonquist: "It is pretty dense; they did not leave _nuch that the did not build on." ,.-. Mr. Else: "D� we nee3 side yards dora� to�.?" Mr. Hawks: "No you would not need any down town." Mr. Blomquist: "The code says that we have to have set-backs." "It says you can not build next to the property line." "Also it says that you have to have 1/8 of the space of the floor in window space." -6- The February 13th, 1963 Zoning and Planning special meeting minutes continued. "We should go ove�the building code require�ent; they require �ore things that must be considered than you would thin�." "It would be good to compare � the two so that we do not get in trouble ;with the code." Mr. Hawks: "If the two work together it will cover everything that we will be concerned with." "But the two should or will have to be co-ordinated." "Do you thing two :najor approaches will take care of the situation for Hopkins?" "You would have the Double Residence and the two types of Multiple Residence." Mr. Else: "As long as it provides for the high risers." Mr. Brubacher: "Are you taking 1500 ft for the density or what?" Mr. Hawks: "On the high riser, if you take off the ceiling you could or would go to 600'." Mr. Else: "But so much of our problems is parking." Mr. Hawks: "They have to take care of the parking." "The only ones that do not have to worry about parking is if they are building down-to�an." Mr. Brubacher: "rhen you are going to give them credit for their parking;" Mr. SundUy: "Wou'.dn�t they go under ground for parking." "Didn't the To,aars go under ground?" Mr. Hawks: "No the Towner did not go under ground for parking." "They do not have to have inside parking." "Edina is the only one around here that does that." Mr. Sundby: "(�hy did Edina do that?" Mr. Ha?aks: "Because Edina feels that if you are going to build you have to put up a good building and one that they can get their taxes out of.'° Mayor Milbert: "We are talking about .the density on this M-R. -1; are we gong to far w:zen ,..� we go from 1000' to 2400' ?',' Mr. Hawks: "The downto�n. area is 1200'. Mayor Milbert: "I know but you have talked to some who will build 2000'. "Do you think that is a little strong." Mr. Else: "I feel 1200' is a little low." Ma.yor Milbert: "2000 is a lot, there is quite a difference." Mr. Sundby: "i�ere we not originally talking about 1500' , Jim?" M.a.yor Milbert: "1500' they could proba',ly build but 2000' might make it to stiff for the�n to build." Mr. Hawks: "�s this som�sthing that we want to do, to encourage this type of building, or just to f�il up the land," --� Mayor Milbert: "Dontt you think if these fellows thought the people wanted a better apartment building they would build them?" Mayor Milbert: "Rather than keep on giva.ng variances don't you think we should keep the density low enough so that we can not have any variances?" Mr. Hawks: "I agree, I don't think after we �hange the ordinance ;ae should continue to -7- The February 13th, 1963 Zoning and Planning sp�cial meeting minutes continued. give variances." Mr. Hawks: "It gets to be sort of a game." "One person has the money an3 the ather has the land." "Then one will have the land an3 carit find anyone -�. with tne money, this goes on until tney finally there will be a market for 500 units and someone will come up with both the land and the _noney and he ;aill put up 200 of the units." "We have to be realistic ." Mr. Sundby: "Would we acconplish what we want to do if w� drop the density from these suggeste3 densities?" "Is this not what we should do?" Mayor Milbert: "By using these densities it is the s.�m�� as doubl�ing the price of the land." �Kr. Hawks: "�es, you wou7.d be buried." Mr. Hawks: "Professional builders figure that if you ;aant to build a 12 unit building it is going to cost you $12,000." ^ Mayor ylilbert: "I will give you an exa'-nple ; at Cambridge a fellow gave 1500.00 for lan3 and if he had to have 2000 feet for density it would make ?zis property cost 3000.00 dollars." Mr. Else: "It will force then to build or go into bioger units." Mr. Brubacher: "The Lamp Liters cost more than that." Mr. Else: "Did they pay �ore than $3500.00?" Mr. Strojan: "Yes, they did/" Mr. Haw'�.s: "i�id the La�p Liters cost 3600.00 for the land?" Mr. Brubacher: "I am sure it did." "They �zad to buy two house ;aith it and they were pretty go�d houses." Mr. Hawks: "At least we k.no� that it is expensive." Mr. Sun3by: "But wizat do we want for Jim, so he can brin� in a suggested ordiance ch ange?'' M:r. Hawks: "W�ell, if we are go3n� to open it up at the top we will change the �aliole thing." Mr. Sun3by: "v,Tny don't you 3o that." Mr. Else: "That will provide for parking." Mr. Else: "I do�z't see ho�a you are going to chan;;e the parking, if this 1100 is not goin; to include the parking." iKr. Hawks: "We know that you have got to have parkin;; and side yards." The parking is over and above the room for the building." "All you �use the density for �-- is yau can figure out ho�a you �an pat a ten unit building on it." M,�.yor Milbert: "I'he parking would fit on it be�ause of the shap� of the land." Mr. Else: "Is o.�.e �arkin� lot enoug'n?" Mayor yIilbert: "It s'.�ould :have 1.2 no�.a." Mr. Hawks: uThe parking is not here." "Pointing to a map." -8- The February 12th, 1963 Zoning and Planning Co�mission sp�cial meeting minutes continu�d. Mr. Else: "r�k.t is not enough." "i�e should put it in here." Mr. Stannard: "What about 1.4 per u�it for parking;" Mr. Hawks: "I would say tnat it �ould be to high.."- - -"It would be higher than any -.� place else." Mrayor Milbert: "As Jim says the apartment owner should _nake the renters know that if they get company or have �nore than one car they will have to park else :ahere." Mr. Else: "How many sq, ft in the efficency apartments?" Mr. Hawks: "40� sq ft. ; the two bedrooms have 740 to 900 sq. feat." "rhey should rent for fro.n $140 to $150. per month.". Mr. Else: "Fo.r e�ver car yoa have to have so .nany sq. ft, of land for parking, rioht?" Mr. Ha�aks: "That is what this F.A.R, says. Mr. Else: "As many units as you go up you are still using the sane land." "You *,aant done for paricing an3 some for a reasonable amount of gree�n; I would think " it would take care of itself." Mr. Hawks: "It doas." �i�our piece of land will take care of it." Mr. Stannard: "Do you kno:a of any area around here that do it that way?" Mr. Hawks: "Yes, tne Parks." "It is working out for them." "The parking area is to be provided an3 has to be in ___areas and driveway." iKr. Sundby: "Well, anyway you are going to come bach with these proposals and we can go fro.m there." Mr. Hawks: "Yes, I will." Mr. Else: "Are not most of these lots 40 � wide?" Mayor Milbert: "iVo, there are fifty fezt;" "�hat is most of then." Mr. Haw'�.s: "You can bring about certain things by what we write." "Wnat I am concerned � about is this, wizat d� we want to bring about." Ma.yor ylilbert: "I think the Enginear said that they can reduce t�ese �.naps.""So:netnin, we can repro3uce that will be small enough s� that we can �aork on them." iKr. Else: "W� surely ought to be sure ;ahat we are doing before we �hange the zoning lines on the maps." Mr. Ha�aks: "We can do that." (Answering Mr. Milbert about re3ucing the maps to a workable size.) Mr. Brubacher: "Phis map was done in 'So." Mr. Hawks: "f�aat is the flight?" iKr. Strojan: "The flight is not mu�h." "It is the ;aork afterwards." "You have to have '� your photos to make the caanges, etc." Mr. Brubacher: "We �aid $3,500. for part of it, the last time." Mr. Strojan: . "It must hsve cost about $12,0��0." Mr. Brubac:�er: "I do�.�.'t kno;a for sure but the big controversy was over $1700." Mayor Milbert: "In the :nean time �John can you fin3 some �ahich we can d�ctor up?" -9- The February 12tn, 19�3 �oning an3 Plannin� Connnission specil meeting minutes continu�d. Mr. Strojan: "Yes, we have the:n." Mr. Sun3by: Case �Vo. 63-5-Z & P. Applicant: Zo:-�ing an3 Planning Cozrnnission Subject: Revie� boundary adjustments of the City. '� Request: Re�view and stu3y all City Boundaries. ACTIOV REQTJIRED: Re�o�:rnnen�. any changes to the Co�mnittez for their consideratiox Mr. Hawks: "�Kr. Sun3by and Mr. Stan.nard are me2t�_ng tomorro� nig'nt to talk over the various boundary proble�ns." "Mr. �Hawks pointe3 out on the boundary map all of the �various areasthat should b� considered." Areas that we can exchange for other areas that we .nignt like to annex." Mr. Else: "It gets do�rn to if it is practical or are �ae just trying to pretty up ,�ur border." Mr. Haw�cs: "It gets down to service the areas with fire, sn�w rernoval p�lice etc.':' Mr. Sundby: "Phey are talking about swappin, tne gravel pit etc." Mr. Hawks: "We have to rene.mber that they are pretty good business �nen." .-. Mr. Ha�aks: "We do not worry about the school districts." "We could give then a pie�e of land to go ;aith what ever we are talking about." "i�e should agree t� talk about all of it." "But we should talk about the trailer court also." M,�yor Milbert: "rhe people on the West of us are going to pe�it�on us to get into Hop?cins." "Can they go to :�Iinnetonka with tne pytition." "Or do they have to get into Hopkins first;" Mr. Strojan; "On this type of thing tney can tell MinnLtonka that they, Minneto�nka can not service the area with seaer an3 �aater; we :.an service the.n �etter than they ev�r will be able to 3o so." Mr. Hawks: "These are nuisance valuas." '� Nlayor Milbert: "They acturally lifte3 the plow over in dog to,art. "That is where the streets were �-�ot 50� wide. "rhey have 29 :niles of streets that are not 50' wide." Mr. Brub�.cher: "The sewer proje:.t is a proble:-n that will have to be considered." Minneapolis has to agre2 to take the�n in .�.lso." Mr. St.rojan: "If we owne3 both sides then it would be better." Mr. Ha�ks: "i�� are trying the keep the boundary on the County road lines." Mr. Brubacher: "That is a nice thing about Minnetonka, all of the roads are on Coanty lines." "Then too, we just put in �ore �_non�y than �ae should zave in that bridoe." "i�e hhould have paid only 4 of the cost." Mayor Milbert: "Pointing to a piece of progerty on the �nap says that this pie:.e ��ill .�. be taxe3 in time." Mr. Ha�aks: "Maybe that will do it, if we tie that up so it could n�t be industrial by puttin� a ridder in the dee3, that piece of ground tnat they would like to use as a buffer for their in3ustrail area night be a good trade." Mr. Sundby: "Paul, it looks like you will go over to lisson only tomorrow night." -10- Tne February 12, 1963 Zoning and Planning Co:mmission special m�eting minutes continued, Mr. Hawks: "Thats the thing." "We had heard that the wanted to get ride of the trailer Court and now they say they want to trade." Mayor Milbert: "Does this mean that the m?eting will be only on the trailor court?" Mr. Hawks: "No, we will talk of other boundaries of interest if they want to do so." Mr. Sundby: "I will �e late, very late, do you think that Paul and Mr. Hawks are enough to represent us?" Mr. Brubacher: "No, Blo�quist, Strojan and Peterson will go." Mr. Else: "Then you, Howard and Paul will bring back the ideas that you get from the meeting?" Mayor Milbert: Pointing to a map. "Before we go on do you want to talk about this?" "It is a new proposal." "Have they talked to you John?" Mr. Strojan: "Ye�, they have." (The property south of Lake St, and West of Texas extended) . Mr. Brubacher: "Is this the one we turn down because they only have 20' for a road;" "We -- "We told them to buy some more land from St. Louis Park so that they can have a dedicated road." "As it is they have only an easement." "i�e wanted them to buy some more land." "Even one of the existing homes." Mr. Strojan: "I talked about their buying some land from_the people around there." Mr. Sundby: "GThatc:does he want to do?" Mr. Brubacher: "We have always told him that he would have to buy 20 feet so he can�; have a road to get out on." "He only has 30 feet." "He would have to buy one of these lots." '�pointing to map.) "We couldn't get in to service the project with the snow plows or anything." Mayor Milbert: "They are talking about a millon dollar project." Mr. Sundby: "Give it to him." Mr. Brubacher: "That is the problem; we can not service the area for them." Mr. Hawks: Pointing to the map; "if you can come in here or here, it would be all right." Mr. Else: " " " "Is this an alley?" Mr. Stro;;an: "It is a private alley." Mr. Brubacher: "We are using the private alley now, we drive our gar'oage truck on it." Mr. Else: "Do we plow it?" Mr. Brubacher: "Yes, we have to." Mr. Sundby: "You are pxoposing that they buy one of these houses and that is how they could get into here?" Mr. Brubacher: "Yes, but noQ�ne has every come in with plans that have wanted to spend � the :noney to buy the property so they could develop it." "These peopel are going to b� fighting it," "We will have a problem aith them." Mr. Strojan: "But you can not g�t in there without crossing private property." The barriers St. Louis Park put up stop the traffic." Mr. Brubacher: "Murphy Ave:nue is 29' on one end and 33' on the other." -11- The February 12th, 1963 Zoning and Planning Coirnnission special meeting minu�es confinue. Mr. Strojan: "If this thing had a way out, we might b� able to work it." Mr. Brubacher: "But the problem here, if you have antagonistic people on both sides w'nen .... you start through on some ane else property you will have trouble." Mr. Else: :How wide are the streets?" Mr. Strojan: "It is 30 feet wide." Mayor Milbert: "What are the width of the average stre�t?" Mr. Stro-��'.an: "33 feet; but no parking." "The peaple that live there can not build there." "That is not a dedicated road." Mr. Sundby: "id�hat type of building are we talking about?" Mayor Milbert: "About a millon dollars in doubles." Mayor Milbert: "I brought it up and he said that land was tied up." "The stripe is on a 4'/0 loan." Mr. Brubacher: "How many units are they tal�ing about Mr. Milbert?" "� Mr. Blomquist: "If you are talking a million dollars you are talking about 100 units." Mr. Sunday: "As it is they could not possibly put this on it?" Mr. Hawks: "Not as it is , unless he can buy a piece." Mr. Brubacher: "There is some who are against it." Mayor Milbert: "He thought he was getting a house when he bought it, but he found his land went to the creek instead." Mr. Strojan: "Yes , then he found out that his land went to the creek and was not good for putting a flag pole on it." Mr. Else: "How would the seaer come in here?" Mr. Strojan: "It is fairly deep at Lake Street and Texes." "It would make a difference the way you co�e in on it." Mr. Sundby: "He will talk to John." "You havz the feel of it now �ohn." Mr. Strujan: "I do not kn�w no;a St. Louis Park will go for it." Mayor Milbert: "If he �ame in here (point to the map) this way and has anothe way out he would be ok?" Mr. Strojan: "That is wizat I said," Mr. Brubacher: "He has to acquire this, it is private property." Mr. Strojan: "i�ell, maybe that (point fo the map) goes with it; maybe that way he will be ok." M�ayor Milbert: "Mr. Lund owns this strip and he �aould like to see it developed." "However �Ir. Lund wi11 not do the developing." � Mr. Sundby: Case No. 63-6-Z & P. Applicant: Zoning and Planning Co:mnission Subject: Review and discuss the joint meeting on the Do�an-town plan. Request: Outline the steps to be follo�ae3 in future meetings so that the entire Dowen-Town Plan naybe carefully revietaed. M:r. Sundby: "Jim, can we re-veiw the down-town plan?" -12- The February 12, 19b3 Zoning an3 Planning Comnission special meating minutes continued. Mr. Hawks: "Schoell and Madson just bought the Nygren building." "Crestland has rented on� of the smaller units." "On the post office building I,�r�ill let Jo:�n tell you about that." "Phere is so:nething going on in the Chamber of Connerce — group as to the �nethod of taking care of the parking; they have the lots." Mayor Milbert: "How did they co:ne out last night?" Mr. Brubacher: "One or twa of the men think that all of the �parking has to be acquired by the City. Mr. Ii�.wks don�t they seem to think that we are going to have to furnish employee parking as well." "But L�here is still this group how feel that by now 'ouying it all at once it is a piece meal way of doing it." "I don�t think the City can go into this at this time." Mr. Sundby: "The City can�t buy employee parking." Mr. Brubacher: "Mr. Vesely said that ernployee p.�.rking is not a public need." Mr. Hawics: "You can do it by a reven�.e bond thing." "But we have two kinds of land use � here." "i�e �zee3 parking for customers and service vahicle and t'ne employees p,�.ricing." "We really h.�ve three different. �le;nands." "The cars have got to .move in and out of the lots." "Ever employee is also so.neone elses custom�r." "Everybody might go in an acquire lan3 in this area; he could control it by an attendent or one of the many other sorts of controls. "We mast know just what are the kin3s of parking neede3." "Mayba the �ity should buy and put a construction on it and meter it," Mr. Brubacher: "Mrs. Sala told you that the tax lose would be very great and som�thing that alI of the business firms would want to take over." "And by the way, Schoell and Madson bought this building and he bougnt t;��se next two lots for their .... parking." Mr. Hawks: "Tne City has got to decide how they want to handle this." "I disagree ��aith Mrs. Sala w:zen she says that you have to get a site and put a sturcture on it and then get the taxes out of it." "It is goin� to take a littel wnile but it will work out." Stannard Mr. �tE����p�: "If the City does buy a piece of prope�ty and put in a parking ramp the building will be around the needed parking." "But I think the buildings will follow the parking." Mr. Stro�an: "For these people wno are couating on the parking; it is for the cousto:ners not for the e;nployees." "Tnen tnere is no two hour park�ng." Mr. Hawks: "Say the City Bot��ht these and put 10 :1our meters on them." "We could pay the --� cost of the wnole lot." "But it would be hard to say how ;ae could pay for the:n by what we are taking in on the present meters." Mr. Brnbacher: "You would have to estblish you parking zones on 2nd. Street North." Mr. Hawks: "You will have a three block area were there ;aill be no parking at all." -13- The February 12, 1963 Zoning and Planning Comnission special meeting minutes continued. Mr. Brubacher: "Some of you ware on the �ouncil wnen we had long term parking on the lots." Mr. Hawks: "If the people wunt stand for parking then you are not ready for lots." Mr. Stannard: "If the City was to pay, say one _million dollars for lots; coun3 it not be done?" Mr. Brubacher: "I do not know wnat Joe means but he said that if we acquire the lots you could not have e:nployees using then." Mr. Sundby: "But Joe also said it would be almost impossible to fin�.nce;; , Mr. Stannard: "Cound we buy one at a time?" Mr. Sundby: "In effect this is the plan we want to adopt." "Then say a fellow wants to :n�.ke a fast buck, he want to put up a building and we either have to let him or buy his property." "If we adopt this plan we would be vulnerable." Mr. Brubacher: "Yes, we �aould be; in fact we would be in the position �f puting up or shutting up." ,� Mr. Else: "You do not think that everyone would build his private parking;" Mr. Brubacher: "I think they would." Mr. Else: "Why not make them provide parking with their buildings?" Mr. Hawks: "Then we are breaking it down and you can get into proble,:ns in policing etc." Mr. Sundby: "D�es the Ul�mber of Co:nmerce look like they are going to come in with a plan?" /the business fir}ns Mr. Brubacher: The think I think they nave got to do to make them come up with a plan where the e_nployees have to p�.rk." "They say if they do not provide parking they cannot get enployees." "I do not think we can put a ramp up for $4.00 per month rent." "inThat do you fellow pay down to�r�,. in Minneapolis?" NIr. Else: " I pay $21.00 per m�nth." ._. Mr. Sundby: "I pay $30.00 a month with come and go privileges." Mr. Brubacher: "It is a job of education." "If these people are going to get free parking they are going to have to walk a few blocks or else they will have to pay for it,�r Mayor Milbert: "That is true." Mr. Brubacher: Employee parking is an unsolvable problem and one I think that they should solve themselves." Mr. Stannard: "What about maintenance?" Mr. Brubacher: "Th.at will be a real problem." "The total tax will not be as much and in the meantime you are not doing anything for M�tec and they pay more taxes than .-� anyone else." Mayor Milbert: "The meters are to take care of the m.aintinance.of the parking lots." "Wo we can notcommit` these funds to anything else." Mr. Brubacher: "Al1 the money that has been paid in so far has been to pay off our share has com� from the parking meters." "But I think we are going to have some -14- The February 12, 1963 Zoning and Planning Colunission special meeting minutes continued. Mr. Brubacher: "question from our industries if you start given employee parking for the down-town business firms." "They, the industries are going to want the same." Mr. Hawks: "I think you can see we have a problem." Mayor Milbert: "One other thing; Mr. Lee wants to put up a building across the tracks on 9th. One think;I was trying to get him to put his building up South of Excelsior." "�ny place on the South side." Mr. Else: "Personally I do not see why he can't put a medical center up North of the tracks." Mayor Milbert: "That is the whole problem; now he want to put up a part medical and a part business building." "And it is not a colonial." Mr. Brubacher: "I want to take a couple of minutes on the Post Office buildinj." Mr. Vesely mad some real good contacts and got some real good help." "The -- thing is Joe quoted them a price of $100,000 for the property and they almost fell off their chairs." "What we have to decide is if it is worth it to the City to help acquire this property for the new Post Office building." Mr. Hawks: "There will be about a four million dollar per year pay roll plus havin�=�he the building go in a part of town that badly needs to be up-graded." "The Cities share would be paid back in three years." Mr. Brubacher: "Tnere is this first place (pointing to map) or on County road ��3 on the North of llth and 12th." Mr. Hawks: "They are talking about a $40,000, building." Mr. Brubacher: "But it is not a regional office - - - - - Mr. Else: "Is the present building tax free?" .-. Mr. Brubacher: "Yes, it is." Mr. Hawks: "But this will go back on the market." Mr. Sundby: "Will we still get it back in three years, Jim?" Mr. Brubacher: "No, it would take twenty years." Mr. Sundby: "At that rate if it would be paid back in three years there would not be any 3oubt about what we aould want to do." Mayor Milbert: "I don't know w'nat the Post Office are thinkin�;, but they are doing a lot of ineasuring around there," Mr. Blomquist: "The s�:�� men are back and making the s.ame complete survey they m.�.de b��fore. N1,�yor yIilbert: "How :nuch are Bursch�s taxed?" ^ Mr. Hawks: "Yes, it would take twenty years to pay the noney back." Mr. Bru�acher: "rhis is so-nething that the �ouncil and the Down-to�an area and everybody must work on." "And then they have to decide ho;a much it is worth to the City." -15- The February 12th, 1963 Zoning and Planning �o:nmission sp�cial meeting minutes continued. Mr. Else: "Would you say that the �ity �ould l�.ve to buy the land?" Mr. Hawks: "Would they s.ay that we have to condemn the land." Mr. Brubacher: "�']���/��rib'vf�1L/�¢/�,6�XX/�9S�i�/1E� It will co:ne to that." Mr. Hawks: "If we had the building here (point to :�nap) it would be close enough to be a down.tonw post� office also." Mr/Brubacher: "This is one of the argu-nents; if it was here or here (pointing to the map) it would be close enough for the down-town post office building." "But they are pretty convince that it will not come until this fall." "It will have to co�ne through politics." Mr. Gustafson: "C.an the City own and Iease the building?" Mr. Brubachas r: "Yes, but it is a good thing these guys did not get - - - - , only the top fellows know about it." Mr. Sundby: "How .nuch land do they need?" � Mr. Brubacher: "Three acres." Mr. Else: "All of these home are wnat you would call marginal." Mr. Brubacher: "The other area is across from the new City Hall site on llth." "These homes are a little better." Mr. Else: "i�ould it nat be best to get a contractor to co:ne in and - - - - Mr. Hawks: "There is not enough money in it." Mr. BruUacher: "we have it assesed at $179,000." Mr. Hawks: "rhe taxes are nothing." Mr. Else: "If you were to condemn it could you buy it?" Mr. Brubacher: "If you want it here or here we have thetalking point that it will same them $36,000 per year." Mr. Else: "Would they give this (pointing to the present p�st office) if we bought this?" Could we trade?" "[�That would they pay for rent?" Mr. Haw'�.s: "They would be paying enough to pay it off in twenty years." Mr. Brubacher: "The goverment would let a contract for $40,000. " "�Te �aill assign the option - - - - Mr. Gustafson: "They quote the rent on the building after they get the cost of the building." Mr. Brubacher: That is potentially a good corner." Mayor Milbert: "I think we should buy that property from the railroad right away." "Tnen go:�to the county and ask for an entersection and that is a corner that is getting ~ worse ever year until we get those signs." No formal action �aas taken on any of the ti�ree ite�ns on the agenda. They �aill be on the agenda for the coming March 12th special meeting.